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Subject: YOU MAKE THE CALL
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:22:01 GMT
From: J

Ok heres the scenerio---Player A, will call him Jeff, has just hit a floater
to the right side that carries to the backwall. Jeff hits this shot from
approx the service box slightly to the right of the court. Player B, will
call him Bruce, is positioned at about the same location only to the left of
the court. Bruce must chase the floater back to the right corner in a mad
dash, and play the ball off the wall. Jeff seeing that Bruce is going to
have to hit the ball on a full turnaround moves from the right side of the
court over to the vacated left side giving Bruce a clear shot line off the
forehand side.

Bruce gets to the ball, turns to shoot then raises his hand calling a hinder
on Jeff who is way the hell on the other side of the court. Bruce explains
that in his mad dash to chase down the ball he had lost track of Jeffs
position and didnt want to hit a shot that might hit his opponet.

I realize this was a considerate and polite action BUT on the ensuing
playover Bruce hits an ace on his serve. How would this have been handled
had a ref been present at a tourney??? If the call had stood to play it over
Jeff would have blown a frekin gasket---I could then argue that I should get
to play every point over where I am in a desperate situation claiming that
in all the confusion I had lost track of my opponets position.

Keep in mind Jeff is up front near the service box to the left while Bruce
is in the deep right hand corner of the backwall. How in Gawds name is this
a do over!!!!!!!!

J


Subject: Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL
Date: 16 Aug 2001 20:05:59 GMT
From: (Jordan Kahn)

You need to play by the rules, which are fair and safe for all.

Simply hitting the ball around your opponent when you have a better shot is
plain *stupid.

Ask for a hinder.

Wouldn't you grant the same to your opponent?

As for moving out of position for your opponent on their shot, you have to give
the DTL and CCP, unless of course they are in no position to hit either. That's
just tough luck if you lose court positioning waiting for their return.

If your opponent has "a chance" for the return, but has a reasonable chance to
also hit you, play should be stopped, no matter how bad of a shot they would
have, as long as they had a reasonable chance for a successful return.

Players forget that advanced players can be just as dangerous as beginner
players because better players can get to more off-balance shots with more
hitting power, and like beginners, have very little control on these "get"
returns.

BTW- NEVER continue playing if you have to hit around your opponent. You are
setting yourself up for problems. Your opponent won't know when they really are
in your way since sometimes you play it, and you are teaching others that it is
OK to do so.

*In match with players of much different skill levels, the higher skill player
may wish to "hit around" since they are probably playing at 50% of there
capacity, but the lower player always has the right for a hinder.

Just because a player has a weak return doesn't mean they can't get a hinder.
All that is required is a reasonable chance.

Jordan

PS. Whenever I play with players who continue to get in my way, I stop play and
explain the rules to them. Sure, I could always hit around them, but I would be
doing them and other players a disservice by allowing them to pick-up these bad
habits that they will pass along to other players.
--

Subject: Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL
From: J
Date: 8/16/01 11:20 AM Central Daylight Time

Otto, Jordan
I must respectfully disagree. In this particular case my opponet was in
extreme distress due to the placement of my shot---realistically his best
chance was to play the ball back into the back wall or attempt a lob, any
attempt to drive the ball to the front wall would have given me a clear
advantage. Unfortunatley my opponet chose not to execute any shot but
instead nullified my advantage by stopping play.

I have to feel that this is a call that should only be made by an ref who
has both players in his field of vision and not by a player who doesnt have
a clue where is opponet is.

What about the opposite case---what if he had decided to turn a rip the ball
and I hadnt moved, forcing me to take cover--his ball makes it to the front
wall but because his shot caused me to take a dive Im no longer in position
to return the shot---Does his shot then justify a hinder due to its
recklessness????

BTW for the record during any given match I find myself in a position at
least 3-4 times where I have to alter a offensive shot due to my opponet
being in the line of fire---rather then disrupt play I chose to go to the
ceiling. So it would be ok for me to hold up, stop play and request a do
over in these situations?? Works for me I just thought it was a chicken shit
way of playing.

Sorry Im just gettin a lil tired of takin extra care to give opponets a line
of fire, often takin myself out of a point doing so, while they contiually
back into me, obstruct my shots and then call bogus hinders.


Subject: Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:13:31 GMT
From: "Otto Dietrich" <ottod@worldnet.att.net>

Hi Jeff

You asked for a call and here it is!

A rally like the one you described below should be replayed most of the time
as a safety hold-up to encourage generally safer play--not the more
aggressive style of ripping anyone, anytime.

That said, the rules say that the referee should accept (read that more like
"not refuse") the hinder if it was "reasonable" and, of course, the player
"would have been able to return the shot".

Since there seems, in your situation, no question as to whether he could
have hit the ball, the only thing in question seems to be "Was it
reasonable?" Well, I guess I'd have to see the play to really express a
firm opinion on it, but I usually give the hitter the benefit of the doubt.
Factors I usually consider include: (1) If the shot would have been directed
at the other player, but could have magically gone through him, would it
have reached the front wall?, (2) Has the player shown that he can actually
hit a shot like the one that he "didn't take", say an extreme reverse
pinch?, (3) Should the player have been more aware of his opponent's
position, but just screwed up?, and (4) What would I have done?

I'm not sure that gives you a very good answer, but I doubt that anyone
could give you a better one. If you do get one, please send it to me! (I
mean one based on the rules, not some suggested modification of them).
There's a lot of judgement going on in such a situation. The best you can
really hope for is a ref that calls it the best he can--encouraging safety,
but not being taken advantage of.

At your service,

Otto

OTTO E. DIETRICH
President, United States Racquetball Association 1998-Present
National Rules Commissioner 1988-1998
Member of National Rules Committee 1982-Present

"J wrote in message

> Ok heres the scenerio---Player A, will call him Jeff, has just hit a
floater
> to the right side that carries to the backwall. Jeff hits this shot from
> approx the service box slightly to the right of the court. Player B, will
> call him Bruce, is positioned at about the same location only to the left
of
> the court. Bruce must chase the floater back to the right corner in a mad
> dash, and play the ball off the wall. Jeff seeing that Bruce is going to
> have to hit the ball on a full turnaround moves from the right side of the
> court over to the vacated left side giving Bruce a clear shot line off the
> forehand side.
>
> Bruce gets to the ball, turns to shoot then raises his hand calling a
hinder
> on Jeff who is way the hell on the other side of the court. Bruce
explains
> that in his mad dash to chase down the ball he had lost track of Jeffs
> position and didnt want to hit a shot that might hit his opponet.
>
> I realize this was a considerate and polite action BUT on the ensuing
> playover Bruce hits an ace on his serve. How would this have been handled
> had a ref been present at a tourney??? If the call had stood to play it
over
> Jeff would have blown a frekin gasket---I could then argue that I should
get
> to play every point over where I am in a desperate situation claiming that
> in all the confusion I had lost track of my opponets position.
>
> Keep in mind Jeff is up front near the service box to the left while Bruce
> is in the deep right hand corner of the backwall. How in Gawds name is
this
> a do over!!!!!!!!
>
>


Subject: Re: YOU MAKE THE CALL
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:56:15 -0400
From: "self" <nospam@nospam.com>

> Bruce explains
> that in his mad dash to chase down the ball he had lost track of Jeffs
> position and didnt want to hit a shot that might hit his opponet.


> How would this have been handled
> had a ref been present at a tourney?

Probably a couple of different ways.

For me, as I have stated here before, part of my own on-court briefing is:
"If you feel there is a safety danger, HOLD UP! I will grant any reasonable
hinder then, and will not second guess you."

So, given that talk, it is plain as day what I must say in your situation:
"The hinder stands".

That said, however, a situation that has never occurred is someone taking
advantage of my stance on safety. Now, if I felt that were the case, I would
call a ref time out, and go ON COURT (not from the gallery) and explain that
in my judgment as a ref, I (and the other player) am being taken advantage
of, and that, while safety is still paramount, you are on notice that I may
now need to consider whether the next 'safety' hold-up you make is
legitimate or not.

I would also consider the capability of the players (Novice versus Open) and
whether they seem to have the actual skills to make good judgments or not.
Again, I don't want to be a patsy, but I also (more so!) don't want someone
swinging through, mad, because I denied a prior safety hold-up.

Well, there you go - long, but hopefully clear.

Greg Stoner