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Ball slipping on wet spot
Subject: Re: Slipage (sic) hinder??

        Date:       Fri, 10 Mar 2000 01:52:04 GMT

       From:   "Otto Dietrich" 

 Newsgroups:      alt.sport.racquetball



Several good points were made in this thread.



First,  I can see why wetting the floor might be considered "interfering"

and thus an avoidable on the person who got it wet!



However, the "long standing traditional ruling" is that this is just "Tough

Luck!"



That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be changed, but, as someone pointed out,

the rally might be stopped too frequently for "fear" of the court being wet.

That would be a problem too!



Furthermore, any time the BALL slides due to wetness, it is a hinder

(deadball variety) if it affects the rally.  So, that's NOT just on the

serve as someone inferred.  I think the PROs had such wet ball rule only on

the serve at one time sort of in keeping with their "NO COURT HINDERS" rule.



I hope this helps guys!



Otto



OTTO E. DIETRICH

President, United States Racquetball Association 1998-Present

National Rules Commissioner 1988-1998

Member of National Rules Committee 1982-Present



--

OTTO E. DIETRICH

President, United States Racquetball Association 1998-Present

National Rules Commissioner 1988-1998

Member of National Rules Committee 1982-Present

"Jordan Kahn"  wrote in message



> OK, I asked Otto to help with this question.

>

> Lets wait to hear what he says.

>

> Jordan

> ---

> >Subject: Re: Slipage hinder??

> >From: "Ken Zwyers" 

> >Date: 3/8/00 1:46 PM Central Standard Time



> >

> >Jordan, I only partially agree with you.

> >

> >Yes, the referee is supposed to look out for the players' safety.

Whenever

> >someone dives on the floor, I have the players check for wet spots.  But

> >players are almost always dripping sweat on the floor to some extent.

Are

> >you saying that every time they drip you need to stop play?  What if

someone

> >slips on that?  My understanding was that it was part of the play, and no

> >call would be made.

> >

> >Also, Steve had mentioned that the referee could stop play if the ball

hits

> >a wet spot.  it was my understanding that this could be done ONLY on the

> >serve.  After that, it's part of the play, and no call can be made.

> >

> >Hope this helps.

> >

> >Ken

> >

> >Jordan Kahn wrote in message



> >>Steve, if you referee and apply your interpretations, I hope you have a

> >good

> >>insurance policy.

> >>

> >>As the referee, you are obligated to help insure the player's safety. By

> >>knowing there is a wet spot and letting the players play, you could be

held

> >>responsible for any injuries. Just like a club owner allowing a player

to

> >play

> >>on known unsafe court.

> >>

> >>I think you are thinking about the ancient "old" rule that allowed

players

> >to

> >>keep playing if a shoe or other equipment fell off during a rally. Even

> >that

> >>rule has been changed, probably for liability reasons.

> >>

> >>The real rule for lost equipment or clothing is play stops and that

player

> >>loses the rally, unless the opponent was the reason the equipment fell,

> >then it

> >>is a replay.

> >>

> >>You don't wait for a player to hit a possible "winner" shot. The referee

> >should

> >>stop play immediately, even if that foreign object or wet spot was no

where

> >>near the players.

> >>

> >>This is under the rule about "foreign objects enters the court", Rule

3.13

> >(g)

> >>Play Stoppage. One would think a wet spot would be considered just as

> >>dangerous, if not more, than as a foreign object entering the court.

> >>

> >>This is no different than the court door opening up during a rally or a

> >foreign

> >>object entering the court.

> >>

> >>Jordan

> >>

> >>PS. If this occurred a few times, to the obvious disadvantage of the

other

> >>player, and the other player wasn't "wetting" the floor, I would, as the

> >>referee, ask a player to changed shirts or wipe him or herself with a

> >towel, if

> >>this was the cause. Remember, players sweat all over the place. Just

keep

> >an

> >>eye on the floor, especially when a player dives or falls.

> >>---

> >>Steve wrote>

> >>As I interpret the rules (and the way I've always played it), the only

time

> >>a wet spot on the floor can cause a replay is if the ball hits it.  If

you

> >>slip on it, it's basically tough luck.

> >>

> >>Steve

> >>Team E-Force












What happens if the person playing offense gets hit by a screen ball Subject:              Re: Rules question         Date:              Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:12:47 -0500        From:              "Otto Dietrich"    Newsgroups:              alt.sport.racquetball
Hi Carl You got several answers and ALL WERE CORRECT--Kyle wins the rally!  Only the team on offense can be "hindered" (with a few exceptions, of course), but this isn't one of them! Just wanted to confirm that with you! OTTO E. DIETRICH President, United States Racquetball Association 1998-Present National Rules Commissioner 1988-1998 Member of National Rules Committee 1982-Present Carl Moody wrote in message ... >An interesting thing happened at the club last night. Gary hit a ball from >behind Kyle that jammed Kyle so effectively that Kyle swung and missed. >However, after the ball passed him, it hit Gary before hitting the floor the >second time. Kyle wanted the point. Gary claimed that Kyle screened him, so >that he couldn't see the ball and therefore couldn't avoid it. Besides, Kyle >swung and missed and the ball was by him. It was already low enough that it >wouldn't make it to the back wall for a second chance for Kyle. > >I sided with Gary that it was a do over, but I'm not sure. Anyone know the >rule on this? > > > >Carl Moody >

Subject:              Re: Rules question
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:36:12 GMT
From: "Otto Dietrich"

You are absolutely right! After a player or team hits the ball, they CANNOT
touch it before it bounces on the floor a second time even if the other
player/team has given up on the ball! If they do touch it, they lose the
rally immediately.

One possible exception--if you physically push one of them INTO the ball.
In that case, YOU would be guilty of the avoidable hinder known as "PUSHING"
and YOU would lose the rally instead.

At your service,

Otto

OTTO E. DIETRICH
President, United States Racquetball Association 1998-Present
National Rules Commissioner 1988-1998
Member of National Rules Committee 1982-Present


 What happens if offensive player gets hit by ball 

after the other player has missed and has already given up?



Subject:              Re: serve question-doubles
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:38:01 -0400
From: "Otto Dietrich"


Responded to Via Email and Newsgroup Posting

Hi

Your doubles serving question is a little clearer this time, so here is what
you asked and the answer you asked for:

> Player A & B are partners, Player A serves, Players C & D are partners, ball
> served "right down the middle" splits both C & D, ball hits floor a foot or so
> away from back wall, hits back wall comes off back wall too fast for C or D
> to react, both miss opportunity to hit ball, ball sails up to service box
> hitting player B while still in service box. Whats the call??

The serve is good (and completed) once it touches the floor in the
"receiving" area, but the ball remains in play until it touches the floor a
second time. So, if it continues on and hits either Player "A" or "B"
BEFORE the second bounce, then they lose that rally immediately!

It makes no difference at all that players "C" and "D" have given up on the
ball. Player "A" and "B" should NOT let the ball hit them or else lose the
rally.

At your service,

Otto

OTTO E. DIETRICH
President, United States Racquetball Association 1998-Present
National Rules Commissioner 1988-1998
Member of National Rules Committee 1982-Present











What happens if you hit your racquet against opponent after you've hit the ball Subject: Re: Follow through hinder question         Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 00:26:59 GMT        From: "Otto Dietrich"  alt.sport.racquetball
Hi Alex and Others Garry was basically right when he said: "Technically, If you stop play you do so at the risk of your opponent returning the ball and winning the rally. There is the possibility that your opponent could stop play and ask for a hinder if this contact impeded his ability to fairly get to or return the ball." The reason for the first part of Garry's logic is embodied in Rule 3.14(a)(3) Body Contact which says: "If body contact occurs which the referee believes was sufficient to stop the rally, either for the purpose of preventing injury by further contact or because the contact prevented a player from being able to make a reasonable return, the referee shall call a hinder. Incidental body contact in which the offensive player clearly will have the advantage should not be called a hinder, unless the offensive player obviously stops play. Contact with the racquet on the follow-through normally is not considered a hinder." Pay particular attention to the very last sentence of the rule! In summary, this means that NEITHER the player hitting the ball NOR the person who got hit has a strong claim for a hinder of any kind! So, as Garry said, if you hit your opponent, your stopping out of concern for his well-being COULD result in you losing the rally if he continues to play and wins the rally! This sounds like a cruel rule/ruling, but that's the way it is! Personally, if the "hitter" stops out of sympathy, I'll usually point this out to the opponent, thus appealing for him to replay the rally as a general courtesy to his opponent!  Usually, this influence that players to replay the rally and be mutually happy with the outcome. Hope that sheds some more light on the subject for you! Otto OTTO E. DIETRICH President, United States Racquetball Association 1998-Present National Rules Commissioner 1988-1998 Member of National Rules Committee 1982-Present (and, like Garry, a candidate for (re)election to the USRA Board of Directors!) -- OTTO E. DIETRICH President, United States Racquetball Association 1998-Present National Rules Commissioner 1988-1998 Member of National Rules Committee 1982-Present news:38BA4F07.4E0E4B01@no_spam.com... > My opponent was completely out of the way of my swing when my racquet > contacted the ball, but then rushed in to make his shot, and he got hit > by my follow through (with my racquet). > > This happened at least 3 times.  Each time I stopped play.  He kept > playing; some of the times his return was a rollout, some of times it > came right back to me where I could have easily hit it.  But I always > stopped immediately after my racquet hit him (not real hard on the > shoulder). > > What's the call?  Any rule apply? > > Let me stress that he was nowhere near hindering me before and during > ball contact.  He was standing relatively far away (behind me) when I > began my swing and when the ball was contacted.  After the ball come off > my racquet, my follow through hit him as he ran to get the ball. > Thanks, > > Alex Glaros
What is a carry
Subject: Re: what's a carry?

        Date:  25 Mar 2000 03:12:35 GMT

       From: (Jordan Kahn)

Newsgroups:   alt.sport.racquetball

It is a BIG thing, cause when a player hits a great shot, say a "Z" that "rolls" sideways across the back wall, the only way to return this is by "slinging" the ball. Years ago I hit a great "Z" shot, my opponent caught and flung it to the front wall. I asked the referee if that was legal, being polite since I knew it was not. I asked the ref if my opponent carried the ball, the referee AND my opponent admitted it was a carry, but they both said it was legal since the ball did not BOUNCE TWICE on his racquet. I then asked the referee to check the rule so he could be corrected. The referee said he knew the rule and would check between games. I asked if a shot was OK if it did not bounce twice on the racquet? The referee said yes. So the next ceiling shot my opponent hit, I caught the ball with my racquet, being very careful not to let the ball bounce twice on the strings, then walked to the front wall and flung it for a slow kill shot. The spectators were very amused, but not the referee or my opponent. I explained the ball never bounced twice on the strings so it should be a good shot. I had to call a time out to have an official explain and show the correct rule to the referee. Experienced players can tell the difference by sound and how the ball comes off the racquet to what is a legal slice or an illegal carry. Jordan
Slicing and spinning the ball are not carries Subject:     Re: what's a carry         Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:46:57 GMT        From: "Ken Zwyers"   
Slicing and spinning the ball are not carries, even if they happen on accident.  In fact, putting a spin on the ball can be effective, but it's very hard to learn, and usually leaves a set-up if not done correctly.  A carry is one of the following: 1) The ball doesn't rebound off your racquet, but rather is thrown from the racquet, usually because it's caught between the strings and the frame. 2) An instance where the ball hits the racquet more than one (a double-hit). >looking for opinions on the carry rule. I seem to play a lot of cross over >tennis players.I know we need all the new players we can get,but the way i've believe the rule of a carry the ball should rebound off the strings with out >resting.When I first started to play tournaments if the ref.would hear your ball slice on your racquet they would call a carry ball.Now in the last few years I see slicing and guys putting spin on the ball. when I hear  the ball on their racquet or see their  racquet so flat under the ball that it looks like a catch, I ask 
was that a carry they don't know don't want to know. Seem to think you making rules as I go.

So would like to hear some feed back on the carry rule.

>thanks Nelson






Check opponent before serving Subject:              Re: Another "racquet up" call - (while you weren't looking)         Date:              02 Aug 2000 18:14:06 GMT        From:              (Jordan Kahn)
Mark, Otto gave you the basic tool that will prevent any problems with the current "Racquet Up" rule. Yes the referee gets busy, but BEFORE the referee calls the score, the referee should take care of marking or rotating the score card, depending if it was a point or sideout. Then, the referee should call the score as both players move to their respective positions. The referee DOES NOT have to wait for players to get to their positions. ONLY after the score is called can the server check to see if the receiver is ready. But the receiver can signal "not ready" anytime if the server does not LOOK at the receiver after the score is called, including just prior to the server's motion to serve. Like Otto said, one of the reasons is to keep the game moving, without delays of the serve being replayed. I will give you a secret tip many pros use Look at the receiver while the referee calls the score. Then you don't need to worry and can focus on your serve. The rule SHOULD be changed to allow the referee to "Halt" play if the receiver signals at all, but imagine in non-refereed games how a receiver could signal as the server began their serve! This will create more arguments and waste lots of time, that's why the current rules work fine, just learn how to use them! Jordan PS. I have played at all levels and know this rule works. The only problems occur when players don't understand the rule. Once they understand, there are no further problems. -- Subject: Re: Another "racquet up" call - (while you weren't looking) From: "MARK LOBAUGH"  Date: 8/1/00 8:57 PM Central Daylight Time Mark>> > As was stated earlier. . . the problem most often happens when the referee > > (who is usually also in charge of tracking the score and is marking the > > score) does not see the server glance back.  Then an ugly thing in > > racquetball happens. . . a receiver. . . knowingly . . . watches as the à > server serves the ball. > OTTO:    You don't make a very good point here.  The ref should mark the > score and take care of other "housekeeping chores", THEN look up, get both > players in sight and THEN AND ONLY THEN call the score and watch the players > actions.  Checking readiness BEFORE the score is called is NOT enough! For > what it's worth, I will almost always excuse the serve (i.e. call "No > Serve") if the serve is made while the receiver is signaling, but is doing > so in a manner that the receiver may not have been able to clearly see--e.g. > racquet held up just a little and beside or behind the head. > > > You know. . . I think when I see this scenario playing out in a tournament > > again I may yell out loudly!  If the receiver has a problem with it I'll > > tell him I was "caring for his/her safety"! > > OTTO:  Careful here!  Here's my way of handling someone in the gallery > calling out "Check the receiver" or something else to that effect to warn > the server.  IF that occurs AFTER I've called the score or "second serve" > then I would DEFINITELY stop play IMMEDIATELY (call hinder), instruct the > spectators (generally) that there must be SILENCE after I've called the > score or "second serve" until the point when I declare the rally to be over! > If the is another incident, then I would remove the offender from the crowd! > This action IS covered by Procedure and Policy B.5(f) in the rulebook. > > > This rule is one that needs to be changed.  It rewards unsportsmanlike > > behavior. > > OTTO:  I disagree.  What is needed is closer, more careful and thoughtful > enforcement of the current rule!  But, draft a proposal and run it up the > flagpole and let's see who salutes! > >  > In 2004 I'll be filling out some paperwork I guess. > > OTTO:  Do it sooner rather than later to get it in the hopper and not lose > you idea.  Also, consider consolidating things posted here in the newsgroup > to the extent that you agree with them! > > > Thanks...............................ml > > OTTO:  You're very welcome! > > Regards, > > Otto
Subject:              roll out vs crotch         Date:              Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:44:58 GMT        From:              "nkhan100"  what is a roll out? what is a crotch or crack? on a serve, (please indicate which serve is good)
1, the server drive serve to the front wall (without hitting the side wall) hit the back wall and the ball roll out? 2,  the server drive serve to the front wall (without hitting the side wall) hit the back wall and the ball crack out(go ever which way)? 3, the server drive serve to the front wall, without hitting the floor hit the side wall and roll out from the back wall? 4, the server drive serve to the front wall, without hitting the floor hit the side wall and crack out from the back wall.? 5, the server drive z serve roll out the third wall? 6, the server drive z serve crack out the third wall? Can somebody tell me where I can find the answers? Matt Subject:              Re: roll out vs crotch         Date:              12 Jun 2000 05:04:30 GMT        From:               (Jordan Kahn) Correct... And This rule comes up a few times with the kids I teach. They all giggle when I use the term "crotch". Never fails. Easy way to remember. 1) Any serve, or rally, that hits the front wall and another wall at the same time is considered to have hit the non-front wall first. 2) Use the same example and substitute the back wall for the front wall and you have the answer for serves that hit (on the first bounce) the back wall and floor at the same time. 3) After a few "replays of that shot in your head", it will be easy to call. Jordan PS. Speaking of "crotch" shots; one of the best practices for kill shots is to hit from back corner to cross-court front corner crotch. This is because it is the longest path and takes the most power to prevent the ball from skipping. Aim for the crotch, it is not as hard as it sounds. An advanced skill player should be able to hit a "crotch" shot within about 6 shots. Subject: Re: roll out vs crotch From: "Garry Carter"  Just for clarification. Whether the ball rolls out or bounces in not a consideration. The questions is what did it hit? If the question then becomes: what if the ball hits the floor and another surface at the same time (crotch or crack-out)? Answer: Front wall is bad because it did not hit the front wall first. Anywhere else is good because that surface was not hit before the floor (they were hit at the same time).  So, if the ref believes that the ball hit the front wall and the floor at the same time - loss of rally. If the ref believes that the ball hit the floor and the back wall at the same time on the serve, good serve and point. --  Garry Carter California Rules Commissioner ************
Is this serve a roll out or crotch serve Subject:              Re: roll out vs crotch         Date:              Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:22:45 GMT        From:              "Otto Dietrich"  Hi Several people have answered you correctly, but just to make sure, here goes: You asked:
> what is a roll out? OTTO SAYS: A ball that definitely hits the vertical wall surface BEFORE it hits the floor and hits it so low that the ball literally "rolls" rather than bounces as it leaves the vertical wall. > what is a crotch or crack? OTTO SAYS: A ball that hits two surfaces at the same time or else so near to being at the same time that there is no obvious distinction. > on a serve, (please indicate which serve is good) > > 1, the server drive serve to the front wall (without hitting the side wall) > hit the back wall and the ball roll out? OTTO SAYS:  That serve is "LONG" since it did not hit the floor (first) as required by the rule. > 2,  the server drive serve to the front wall (without hitting the side wall) > hit the back wall and the ball crack out(go ever which way)? OTTO SAYS:  That serve is "GOOD" because "hitting the crack of the floor and any vertical surface" is ALWAYS considered the same as hitting the floor FIRST--regardless of which juncture it is! > 3, the server drive serve to the front wall, without hitting the floor hit > the side wall and roll out from the back wall? OTTO SAYS:  This is virtually the same as question 1 and thus the answer is the same.  The ball can touch one sidewall on the serve and still be legal. The serve is a fault becasue it is long. > 4, the server drive serve to the front wall, without hitting the floor hit > the side wall and crack out from the back wall.? OTTO SAYS:  Again, this for all practical purposes the same as question 2 and thus the answer is, once again, the same.  The serve is good! > 5, the server drive z serve roll out the third wall? OTTO SAYS:  It's a fault--technically called a "three-wall serve!" > 6, the server drive z serve crack out the third wall? OTTO SAYS:  It's good! > Can somebody tell me where I can find the answers? OTTO SAYS:  You've just found them! Otto OTTO E. DIETRICH President, United States Racquetball Association 1998-Present National Rules Commissioner 1988-1998 Member of National Rules Committee 1982-Present <P> > OK, 'm sure this has benn answered about 50 times, but......I still need it > cleared up. > Player A serves a hard Z that after hitting front/side walls hits the crack > of the floor and the opposite side wall. Question: Is this a "Good" (as > opposed to fault) serve? Hi Sam Joel gave you the right answer--any serve that, after passing the short line, hits either the back or side wall at the very same time that it hits the floor is always considered to have hit the floor first and is, therefore, a GOOD serve! See USRA rule 3.10(g) -- especially the last two sentences. At your service, Otto OTTO E. DIETRICH President, United States Racquetball Association 1998-Present National Rules Commissioner 1988-1998 Member of National Rules Committee 1982-Present
Can players override referee no hold up ruling Subject:               Re: overrule ref's hold up decision         Date:              20 Sep 2000 15:36:57 GMT        From:            (Jordan Kahn)  Organization:              AOL http://www.aol.com
Yes, in singles both players can "over-rule" the referee and in doubles 3 of the 4 players. Players can not "over-rule" Tecnicals or Forfeits, Eyeguard usage and a few other things like how many points a game will be played to, although a tournament "official" or "Director" can do more than the referee, which is almost everything except the eyeguard rule. Good luck, Jordan -- Subject: overrule ref's hold up decision From: Alex Glaros alexg@no_spam.com  Date: 9/20/00 1:08 AM Central Daylight Time Hey Otto, Here's a rules question.   Once in a while, my opponent will hold up, concerned about hitting me when I'm really not in the way, and the ref will award the rally to me.  I'd rather play it over.  Can I override the ref on this and vote with my opponent to play the rally over? Thanks, Alex Glaros  . . . . Subject:              Re: overrule ref's hold up decision         Date:              Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:43:46 GMT        From:              "Otto Dietrich"    Hi Alex The short answer is that the players can overrule the referee on almost every call (except technicals and forfeitures).  Refs should be very judicious about NOT allowing safety holdups! Otto OTTO E. DIETRICH President, United States Racquetball Association 1998-Present National Rules Commissioner 1988-1998 Member of National Rules Committee 1982-Present
Talking while opponent is swinging Subject: Re: Rule interpretation Question         Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 03:43:27 GMT        From: "Otto Dietrich"  Hi Ed and Everyone Else
By the book--it's an avoidable hinder--distraction of the opponent! So, it's a friendly game?  Then, point out that the action was distracting AND avoidable, and then do what seems fair--play it over or declare the avoidable! The general concept?  There should be NO talking on the court--singles or doubles.  Saying "MINE" or "YOURS" or any of the derivatives of the same is acceptable, but only by the team on offense (whose turn it is to hit the ball).  After they hit the ball, they must be quiet! Otto OTTO E. DIETRICH President, United States Racquetball Association 1998-Present National Rules Commissioner 1988-1998 Member of National Rules Committee 1982-Present Ed & Kristen > Here's the situation.  In doubles, I was receiving a good lob serve that > was on the wall and just bounced over the short line, but returnable. > Our opponent's partner shouts out "good serve" as I go to return the > ball.  A rally ensues, and ends in a hand out.  I approach the player > who shouted "good serve" and told him that his action could be > interpreted as an avoidable and ask him to refrain.  (Rule 3.15 (f). > Intentional Distractions. Deliberate shouting, stamping of feet, waving > of racquet, or any other manner of disrupting one's opponent).  He > stated that this is *not* a hinder because he did not use "vulgar" > language, and in doubles that he and his partner can communicate in any > manner necessary.  My point is that is an intentional distraction, after > all, it did distract me, even if it encouragement for his partner.  For > a split second, I lost concentration, and thought maybe he said "short > serve."  He argued that "no referee would ever agree with me".  Granted > the rally ended in a hand out and the hinder was a moot point; however, > it still begs the question, what is the ruling?  Otto?  Anyone else? > Thanks in advance. > > Ed Valenzuela >